now by two people with very different views about the war professor norman finkelstein and benny morris israeli
historian well welcome to both of you um benny morris my main question right now
for benjamin netanyahu i put it to him on x directly and i said "if you're
doing everything by the book and everything is justified and everything is legal and you're not committing any
war crimes or any of these things i simply asked him one simple question if you're doing nothing wrong let
international journalists go in and see for themselves." and i think it is
completely shameful that the israeli government continues to stop international journalists from doing
their job and it's down to the individual risk assessment will be by the journalists and their companies it
was put to me uh on two three days ago by uh an idf member that somehow has
been
done for the safety of the journalists it's not it's complete nonsense
and that's not down to israeli government anyway to make that call i
mean do do you at least accept that it is wrong that journalists are not allowed in there
i completely agree with you pierce the government has made a terrible mistake
in not allowing journalists in and whoever dies there dies but they should have allowed them in but i would like to
comment some make a comment about what your previous guest was saying um he
said he he spoke about objectivity or something the man is a total kamas
propagandist half the things he said were outright lies lots of doctors have been abducted and have disappeared is
total nonsense i know of one or two cases of doctor doctors who were taken to an israeli detention center what
happened
to them afterwards i don't know i don't think they've been killed i
think they're under arrest for whatever reason but they could have been
many
doctors have been many basically agreeing with him aren't you no i'm not
i'm saying that he talked about you know of some doctors who've been who were detained you have no idea what happened
one or two i know i know of one or two you're confirming his story
no i'm not i'm confirming a small part of what is true the rest is a lie as is
a large part of what he's saying had israel wanted to kill all the palestinians that's what genocide
actually means there would have been many many many more deaths in gaza each
time israel launches an air raid we hear of the palestinians saying 24 people
have died 30 people have died and i'm sure many of them are civilians but i'm also sure that the air force going in
against these targets is attacking kamasnik we never hear from the kamas how many of their people are being
killed in these strikes all we hear about and all we see on television is dead babies and dead women they never
show grown male army-aged males being taken out of these ruins and the kamas
uses these things systematically there the schools the hospitals various um
so-called safe compounds to hide in okay but out of interest but out of interest
all right but but benny morris when you hear someone like smodrich last week talking about the campaign to just clear
everybody
out he's disgusting you don't you don't have to you don't have to
convince me he's disgusting right so so my question for you but my
question for
you though is is this all right he's disgusting what he said was disgusting but what he said was also genocidal so
so where whereas you do not believe is genocide that's going on he clearly is
talking in a way which made me believe that actually maybe the intention is
genocide it may not be the death of absolutely everybody but it means killing a lot of palestinians and
kicking the rest out of the area and that is a genocide no no a a genocide is something which is
top-down government policy and carried out systematically that's not what is happening he is definitely some of his
speeches are genocidal i don't know what he means exactly and there are other min and there are other ministers who speak
like him and they shouldn't be doing that and they may even have a genocidal mentality but they do not control
government policy and they do not control what the army is doing that's done by the generals and unfortunately
in my mind by a man called netanyao who's totally a corrupt and incompetent
yeah and okay we bring in norman it's got nothing to do with but it's got it's got nothing to do with genocide well i
think you're getting perilously close to agreeing with me norma finkelstein i mean the bottom line is if it if it
sounds from the rhetoric like a genocide if the actions on the ground are becoming increasingly genocidal if
there's no other plan being put out there for what happens to palestinian people other than many more will die and
the rest will be thrown out of the of gaza i don't know what else you end up calling this um and you know i i i
listened to that doctor i didn't hear somebody that i felt was a a hamas sympathizer or propagandist he went out
of his way to say he was he's a liar he's a liar well he's a liar who's lost 78 members of his family so i mean true
and i i and and i agree and i i feel sorry for him but they're caught up in their own in a bad situation where kamas
controls where kamas controls the population and is willing to sacrifice as many civilians as they can to wind
world win world support well which is exactly what israel's also seems like they're prepared to sacrifice normastein
well thank you for having me on the program and i hope that you'll hear me out is it a genocide well as you know
pierce from the first time i appeared on your program many months ago i said it
was a genocide i said it was perfectly obvious when october 9th the then
defense minister galone said "we're not going to allow in any food fuel water or
electricity." well for a hermetically sealed population that's a genocide when the
head of state mr netanyahu compared the current situation
with amc and invoked the biblical reference it was clear as the israeli
human rights organization betum put it that he was talking about genocide
now in the 19 months that have elapsed there have been adjustments in israeli
policy due to external pressure that's called politics so when the external
pressures escalated they had to diminish the the
genocide and then beginning roughly when camela harris was nominated for
president in the united states and all the cameras switched to the american
election mr netanyahu who's very sensitive to and knowledgeable of the american media he
then escalated the genocidal assault on gaza again and then as you remember
because i did several programs with you at that p at that time as you'll
remember every day there was another massacre there were so many massacres it
was impossible to keep count and it was impossible to remember
now again there was some first massacre some lessening the first massacre was launched by hamas i i've not forgotten
it denny benny but you have denny you have to remember manners i'll remember the massacres and
you remember manners
i'm speaking now so the there were times when israel
as i said escalated the genocide and then diminished the genocide now let's
talk about the responsibility and the mindset you've mentioned mr
smoldrich i mentioned mr netanyahu there was also several others
whose names have constantly come up obviously defense minister galant who was indicted along with prime minister
netanyahu by the international criminal court but it's not just the leadership
it's not just the leadership the most recent poll showed that fully one half
of israeli jews we're talking now about the population fully one half of israeli
jews believe that israel should conduct a genocide in gaza that's what the poll
result showed 82% that's a lie that is a lie 80 i know benny benny everybody's
lying never been a fool about supporting genocide mr mr
danny for vain lies okay okay danny what is that norman what
is that what is that poll what is that poll norman it seems a very important poll that is poll you're referring to
the it was a university if our memory is correct it was a university of
pennsylvania poll it was reported everywhere benny marvis knows about the
poll he's fully informed of the poll but he's doing his job as an official
israeli propaganda i don't like his i don't like his government i'm not their spokesman
you've reduced yourself you've reduced mr benny benny you've reduced yourself
to the level of a holocaust denier it's a real shame that you have sunk so low
but allow me to continue the poll showed that 82% of israeli jews
82% support a forced expulsion from gaza that's not the same
as genocide that may be true that may be true but that's not genocide
and that's not what you said before about genocide is total nonsense total nonsense pierce
you're going to have to ask benny morris to please allow me to speak well benny i
will let you respond though yeah norman you must you must
okay i i will finish i will i will finish then one of the leaders of the
opposition in israel described israeli soldiers as killing children as a hobby
in gaza now yes he took it back he took it back after he came under ferocious
attack but he himself acknowledged when i debated mr morris about a year ago and
i said that israel targets children he laughed he thought it was such a funny
remark by me absolutely i'm wondering i'm wondering i'm i'm wondering i'm
wondering after the foreign doctors in gaza after
after the foreign doctors in gaza attested that the children were
being shot in the head and the chest and when one of the leaders of the
opposition in israel said that the israeli soldiers killed children i must
let benny respond no i must let benny respond benny
there has never been a poll asking israelis whether they support genocide this is a total lie and the 50% figure
is also something completely out of norman finkelstein's imagination his twisted mind actually um there is no
targeting of children deliberately and what this um politician said and he's
actually a very clever politician and usually tells things straight and the truth was a slip of the tongue and he
said "i made a mistake i said the wrong thing and i shouldn't have used that phrase." stupid phrase israeli soldiers
do not target as a rule children there may be and i'm sure there are and have
been war crimes committed by israeli soldiers and pilots perhaps in this war
in the course of 19 months but i don't think we should forget that hamas is a
homicidal a homophobic misogynist totalitarian organization which tried to
kill as many israelis as they could most of them civilians on the 7th of august and what befell gaza as a result is
revenge for that attack by the attack by the kamas and the kamas said they would do the same thing again if they are
revived and resuscitated as a leading organization in the gaza strip and i
think that's the objective of the israeli army to end kamas rule and to end the kamas as an organization in the
gaza strip anybody normal who doesn't support islamists doesn't support
anti-semitism doesn't support misogyny doesn't support homophobia should be
against hamas which norman finglestein apparently isn't yeah but i don't isn't
i don't hear people supporting hamas uh in certainly a mainstream media or
anywhere else everyone's of a unanimity that what they did was unconscionable and they should be held to account the
problem is that the strategy that the isra want to do the qu the yes i heard i
still want to do and benny i don't benny let's just assume because they said it themselves in fact the spokesman said it
after october the 7th that they if they can do it again and again they will so they want to get rid of all the jews in
israel okay that is hamas and of the state of israel and and of the state of
israel but the problem is as i've always said from the start of this what is a proportional response resp to what
happened and what is the endg game what does israel actually want at the end of
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